CAPP on Climate

Category: Greenhouse Gas Emissions

posted by Tony from CAPP

Thursday, December 03, 2009 7:28 PM


CAPP says:
The Canadian oil and gas industry fully recognizes that it must continue to do its part in addressing greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions and advocates several key principles to guide the development of Canadian climate policy.

www.capp.ca/environmentCommunity/Climate


CAPP’s Climate Change Policy Principles are:

Balance
Balanced “3E” climate policy delivers Economic growth, Environmental protection, and a secure and reliable Energy supply.

Technology
Policy should stimulate investment in the technologies necessary for significant reductions in GHG emissions in Canada.

Predictability and Stability
A predictable and stable policy supports long term capital investments in our sector and creates jobs for Canadians.

Compatibility
Policy compatibility with major trading and economic partners (particularly with the U.S., our largest trading partner) maintains Canada’s competitiveness.

Harmonization
It is important to attain policy harmonization across jurisdictions within Canada, to an extent that is reasonable and practical.

The CAPP website also has summary videos by CAPP president David Collyer, as well as an opportunity for you to ask Dave a question through Video Q&As.

What do you think?

Reply to this post
posted by Haefen   Friday, December 04, 2009 1:12 AM
I think they have no other real option but to take that position.

Until Canadians reject the demands for us to reduce GHG and transfer more money and jobs out of the country in the form of carbon trading CAPP has to tow the line.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Concerned Canadian   Tuesday, December 22, 2009 1:03 AM
“Until Canadians reject the demands for us to reduce GHG and transfer more money and jobs out of the country in the form of carbon trading CAPP has to tow the line.”

So you are suggesting that Canadians should not be demanding that the oil and gas industry reduce GHG emissions?

Here is the best way to both reduce carbon emissions and save money:

1) Replace your natural gas furnace with a ground source heat pump. This would cost $5-10,000 but if you intend to replace your old furnace anyways then it’s a pretty easy decision to make. A heat pump uses ¼ the electricity of electric heaters and ½ the energy of even a 100% efficient natural gas furnace. The operating costs are ½ that of a natural gas furnace, which means that the higher initial capital investment is paid off in 5-10 years, after which you will be saving money! Plus, it can be run backwards to cool your house in summer!

2) Drive an electric car. You can buy a Nissan Leaf next year if you live in Vancouver, and elsewhere in the country the year after that. They cost about $30,000 to buy. They are about as fast as a Porsche. They go 160 km per charge. But here is the great part: they only cost $25 a month to charge! Imagine how much money consumers would save! They wouldn’t be blowing $200 a month on gasoline anymore! Then we won’t have to develop the oil sands anymore! A win-win situation! Imagine what else people could spend their money on to stimulate the economy! Maybe sustainable things that won’t go flop after society rejects expensive fossil fuels in favour of cheaper sustainable technology over the next 15 years!

Bam, right there, 80% of our carbon emissions solved, using existing technology that is CHEAPER than the current status quo! There will be no transfer of wealth to the developing nations because consumers won’t be spending enough money on fossil fuels in the first place!

Reply to this Comment
posted by Yeti   Tuesday, December 22, 2009 6:46 PM
Where in your picture are Albertens winning is the Nissan Leaf build in Alberta so that jobs lost in the Oil industry get taken up by the Electric Car industry?
And there is that magic word "Sustainable" it really means that a resource is rationed by others for you not controlled by the marketplace.
I have yet to see the "Sustainable Technology" that in the real world is cheaper than fossil fuels.
Some Technologies only appear cheaper for the end-consumer as they are heavily subsidized and we all end up paying the full price with our taxes.

Bam right there 80% of Albertans out of a job and definitely can't afford to buy your heat pump or your electric car, for 30,000 bucks you can buy another compact car for say 16,000 and drive it 200,000 km before you break even with your electric car.
Today you can expect to drive 200,000 km with a car with no major repair but how long will the Battery in your electric car last?

Reply to this Comment
posted by Concerned Canadian   Tuesday, December 22, 2009 10:02 PM
Next year will be the first year Nissan brings the Leaf to market (the first time a mass produced EV has ever been offered) so the prices can’t really be viewed as being typical of what we can expect, except of course that they will only go down. The battery will be leased by Nissan, and after 5 years they will replace it with a newer one for you. By then maybe the batteries will last long enough that you’d want to buy your own, who knows. But Nissan has stated that the total cost of ownership of a Leaf will be less than an equivalent gasoline powered car. That’s next year!

So it’s reasonable to assume that when economies of scale start to bring prices down you will be able to buy a Leaf-like car for about $20,000 all inclusive …. for a car that is as fast as a Porsche and costs $25 a month to charge. That will mark the beginning of the end of the internal combustion engine used for passenger vehicles. This will of course be starting next year, and really be in full swing within 5 years since every automaker will be bringing EV’s to market.

It’s too bad for Alberta that there will be a mass market shift over to EV’s ….. but that’s my money you guys are building your houses with! I’d rather pay $25 a month to drive my car than $200, and keep the $175 for other uses! The oil sands is not a legitimate industry anyways and Albertans can’t say they weren’t warned, since I’m doing it right now! Ed Stelmach, the onus is now on you to transfer this message to your citizens so that they can plan for their future!

Unfortunately, that’s what happens when you build economies based on unsustainable activities --- they eventually flop and then everyone runs around screaming about the contracting economy. Well, if we hadn’t developed that industry in the first place we wouldn’t have been swimming in absurd profits for a short time, but we also wouldn’t have a dead economy when it flops. It’s typical boom and bust. It’s what will happen to Saudi Arabia when its oil runs out and it will happen to Alberta when no one wants oil anymore and the price drops down to a bit higher than what electricity is, somewhere around $20 a barrel. There will still be a demand for aviation fuel and diesel so this will keep the price of oil a bit above electricity. Will the oil sands still be profitable at this price?

The oil industry has artificially created a monopoly in transportation options via Chevron’s patent manipulation of the NiMH battery, which automakers have circumvented by using lithium ion batteries. If it weren’t for this then we would have had electric cars out 10 years ago and Alberta would be feeling the slump right now so I can’t have too much sympathy for them. Here’s the official announcement right now: you have 10 years left of happy profit times. There really isn’t anything left for the oil industry to do to stop this, it is out of their control now. They could try to buy up all the lithium mines in the world and shut them down, but by that time Chevron’s NiMH patent will have expired and we will again have access to those batteries on a free market.

Reply to this Comment
Don't drive to the Oil Patch when it's -40C in your "Leaf" You may need that $175 for a tow truck!
posted by Groundpounder   Wednesday, December 30, 2009 2:19 PM
Since the chemical reactions inside rechargeable batteries become weaker when the temperatures are extremely low, NiMH/Li ion batteries will not be able to provide their usual performance. (This is a common characteristic of all batteries.)

Consumers who drive the Nissan Leaf will learn all about range anxiety. The range of the Nissan Leaf is actually "up to 100 miles." The car will likely get much less range when driven at high speeds and/or in cold weather.

GROUNDPOUNDER



Reply to this Comment
posted by Concerned Canadian   Tuesday, January 05, 2010 3:54 AM
The battery will be kept warm with current from the wall plug. This will be a fairly minor draw. The battery is situated inside the car’s cabin, under the seats, so that when you heat up the cabin (you can do this in advance via your cell phone), the battery will already be up to optimum temperature. Then, the only heating draw will be in keeping the cabin warm to keep up with vents exchanging air with outside, and heat lost through the body of the car. Thankfully, the batteries release heat upon discharge (around 10%, which is the reason for their 90% efficiency). When EV’s go into full swing in a couple years this heat will be actively managed by designers. Even if you do take this heat from electricity the range would only drop by 10-15% max.

It’s all about intelligent energy efficiency design and using what you have to the most advantage, which I know is not something the oil sands industry is accustomed to thinking about, seeing that an electric car uses about 7 or 8 times less energy per mile than a gasoline car (even with that electricity coming from natural gas plants), and releasing a similarly small proportion of GHG’s, and most enticingly, costs 10 times less to drive!!!!

I guess it’s true though, if you’re going to drive down long dirt roads in northern Alberta in wintertime then a limited range EV may not be for you. The Chevy Volt range extended EV would be better for you since you can get much better mileage but still go as far as you want. Fortunately though, the majority of the population of North America (400 million?) doesn’t live in an area where this will be a big problem.

Reply to this Comment
Dream Big! But realistically...
posted by trevor   Wednesday, January 06, 2010 6:43 PM
Well any North American fuel source change can not simply occur overnight. 400 million people are NOT going to simply throw their gas powered cars and economies in the dump and order an electric unknown. Things must evolve, but it won't be overnight. And until it dominates the market... the solely electric powered vehicle need is not there. The confidence is not there. The infrastructure is not there. The manufactures are not there. The volume of available EV's is not there. Change is good though, it makes everyone (producers, users, industry) be; more efficient, more economical and more enviromental! But the future will be farther away than you optimize... We have something here in Canada that everyone currently needs (FOSSIL FUELS - Oil/Natural Gas)! But it is a finite resource, therefore, we must use it wisely, use it efficiently, economically and enviromentally, optimizing all factors in terms of supply and it's consumption, by all parties involved. All the while, our Government needs to foster the industries' innovation and optimization efforts, the user's conservation efforts and allow diversification to prepare for market shifts and opportunities.

Reply to this Comment
posted by Innadiated   Friday, January 15, 2010 6:18 PM
Hmm.. Whats the leaf made out of? Oil materials..

How is electricity generated? It is not a source of energy, but a conversion of energy.

Yea, sucks doesn't it. If i were you i'd look into one of Nissan's 2015 1 Horse power horses. (Sarcasm ...)

Reply to this Comment
posted by Concerned Canadian   Thursday, January 21, 2010 2:16 AM
The Leaf requires about the same amount of raw materials and energy to manufacture as a regular car does. I’ve never said that we should not use oil products for necessary things like making plastics etc. I object to using fossil fuels to power transportation and heat homes when the alternatives are more efficient and cheaper.

Nissan is appealing to environmentally aware customers by making it 90 something % recyclable, and quite a bit of its materials are recycled on the manufacturing side too.

Regarding generating electricity, EV’s use about 6-8 times less energy per km than a regular gasoline powered car (well to wheel). The other difference is that EV’s can be charged using renewable energy if the electricity is produced sustainably. A gasoline powered car cannot be powered by anything other than gasoline or biofuels, neither of which is sustainable or low emissions.

And half of the electrical generation required to charge electric cars would come from the proportional decrease in refinery gasoline production resulting from taking that many gas powered cars off the road (in other words, producing a gallon of gasoline requires ½ times the electrical energy that an electric car would require to go the same distance as a gasoline powered car using that gallon of gasoline).

And much of Canada’s electricity comes from hydro which has very low carbon emissions.

Reply to this Comment
Mis-information
posted by Humanitarian   Friday, February 19, 2010 2:08 PM
To all Concerned Canadians: The suggestions for heat pumps & electric cars are well intentioned but misguided.
1) Heat pumps have their place, but unfortunately their applicability is very limited. In most locales in Canada, a heat pump would actually consume more energy, not less than using natural gas furnaces or boilers. A heat pump is simply a refrigerator running in reverse, taking heat from the cold outside air & "pumping" into the building we want to heat. There's just not enough heat in our cold winter air to make heat pumps efficient. In warmer areas, where temperatures are normally above -10 C or so, heat pumps can be an efficient heat source. Ironically, these are the very locations where summer air conditioning uses much more energy than winter heating.
2) Electric cars! That go as fast as a Porsche! And Only $25 per month to charge! If any of this is even 10% true these cars will sell like hotcakes. In fact of course, we know they won't. Electricity is the most expensive source of energy we consume. Electric cars will not cost less to run until electricity costs less than gasoline. 1 megawatt hour (MwH) of electricity is 3,600 megajoules (MJ) of energy & will cost the average consumer approximately $60-$80 for energy consumption & about as much again for the energy demand charge. Say about $150 total per MwH for electricity. One hundred liters of gasoline contain about the same amount of energy (~3,500 MJ) and costs about $80-$90. So even with the lower efficiency of the gasoline engine, you're still going to pay at least as much for electricity as gasoline to drive the same distance.

But of course the real test for electric cars is the limited driving range. And the real test for self proclaimed environmentalists is how much are they (you) willing to give up in convenience and hard earned dollars to reach your goals? The proof is in the pudding, but I'm not betting that electric cars are going to be taking over the market.

For myself, I intend to make my charitable donations to humanitarian organizations. I think they will do much better things with it & humanity will be much better off than if I spend it on shaky environmental theories.

Reply to this Comment